Special Operations Group

Hey everyone

Ok a interesting subject here....

LETHAL OR LESS LETHAL????

There is no right or wrong answer as both loadouts have reasons. But what is yours??

Here the subject is up for healthy debate.....

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My viewpoint.....

I am a less lethal player normally, my reasoning is the challenge.

I disagree with the lethal being harder, it's easier to complete the mission by killing suspects. It's harder to get all the suspects to comply in the harder missions particularly tss coop. Therefore you have to shout, tase, punch suspects to get them to comply with less lethal, which is very difficult in multiple suspect situations.

I find opposite to the reasoning above, police mentality is to save lives. Therefore it's well known police tactics are to avoid loss of life. Therefore the scoring is only ever achieved with arrests not kills. I enjoy getting the best score possible by getting suspects to comply and be arrested. I will only kill if the officers lives are under threat, hence my lethal backup.

If I was playing as a counter terrorism unit in the army, their priority is the threat to be neutralized, not save lives. Swat however is police and the best challenge is to have a peaceful resolution.

Also... Most public garners don't know how to use lethal, it's so annoying.

LESS LETHAL FOREVER!!!

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Uh there is so much to cover up about this ' What is harder' topic. On one hand it is easy on other it is not easy at all. There is just too many variables

[quote=""Orion""]Uh there is so much to cover up about this ' What is harder' topic. On one hand it is easy on other it is not easy at all. There is just too many variables[/quote]Indeed, but remember the fact is police save lives and prefer peaceful outcomes.

Killing suspects is only ever if officers are under threat. That is the only argument really. Less lethal or lethal, same vision should be achieved.. Kills last resort.

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If suspects having not just pistols but heavy armor and ARs with hostages in building. I bet that they know where they went and what could happen to them. None would take risks of having dead officers on a mission and equip them with LTL on such operations. But thats of course if we stay at real life situations

I play with both so my 2 cents are:

If you play with less-lethal sometimes it hard especially if the sus has heavy amor and sometimes even the beanshotty doesn't even react to the sus, and being in 1 room with 4 sus on TSS while aresting there is a change that one of them get up and shoot you while aresting, so it takes a little patient, also aiming your nade with the launcher at the sus is sometimes a challenge.

If you play lethal, it is hard to shoot at times guess if you kill a suspect wrong you get penaltys, there are time that it is questionable too shoot or not and that might kill you at that time, offcourse it is a game with flaws guess sometimes you shoot in your right and game still counts as unauthorised, that one second if doubt of shooting makes all the difference.

So both sides can be hard or easy.

Both the hardness or eassyness all depends on the team you have with you .

[quote=""Orion""]If suspects having not just pistols but heavy armor and ARs with hostages in building. I bet that they know where they went and what could happen to them. None would take risks of having dead officers on a mission and equip them with LTL on such operations. But thats of course if we stay at real life situations[/quote]

They didn't show up with suitcase bombs and AR-15s to play five card stud. If suspect is facing officers while armed, in my mind, that's a threat. If an armed suspect runs to an uncleared or unsecured area where they could take a hostage or harm a civilian or other officers, that's also a real threat. I put higher value upon those lives and often decide to at least gimp and arrest such a suspect.

I also think to save lives, but I'm not going out of my way or take unnecessary risks with civilian or officer lives.

I think everyone's unique take is enlightening and I'm enjoying the results of this thread!

I say lethal. It's a challange to play lethal weapons and got good score.

Assuming if player which use LessLethal or lethal aim good score, then Less lethal allow players for less tactical gameplay (I didn't said no tactical gameplay), if something went wrong you can almost alway shot suspect and keep good score. On purpose i omit the penetration of objects which is weak side of LL and bugs.

Player which use lethal to get good score need rationally use his equipment and be careful with tactics, because if something went wrong, tactic nor equ fail, then gonna be forced to use lethal weapons and high chance to lost points.

Only time I use non-lethal weapons is when I need to feel safe, often when playing alone. It's easier to control suspects that are coughing and teary-eyed from the pepper than aiming your weapon at them and hoping they won't feel like risking the shot.

Other than that, I prefer lethal, for I have little to no sympathy for suspects. Whether desperate, misguided or drugged, it is not my place to care or judge how and why they got into the situation, my job is to end the crisis.

Thanks Matt for putting that in different thread as it is really interesting one

Have to point out. Are you playing alone or with someone. That is really important. By playing alone you setting your self a target. By playing it LTL with 100 points. Playing it lethal and take no penalties etc etc. No doubt playing alone is sometimes harder if you set your self specific rules for round ( As i tried to have most negative points possible in game, that took me more than 4 hours ) But again sometimes you making game more challenging without good reason for that. What you gonna benefit form that? Better handling with beangbags? better react on suspect actions. Theres a lot you can achieve. And here comes the problem that I can see. People are trying to make game more complicated then it should be by playing in team as they used to play alone.
With team you have great advantage in everything: Fire power, lot of equipment, many sectors. You can clear rooms as fast as never before. Over all you need to think less about other stuff as each member got own roles.

And now you working in team. You have to decide how you want to do it. With lethal or Less Than Lethal. Problem number One- when weapons are mixed in team. You might have penalties for shooting down suspect as in self defence, casue before someone shot him as well with beanbag. What does it say? You have problems in team as there is no trust. Its very hard to have in public servers. Organization of what you guys want to do is priority and must be set at the beginning of the round. Otherwise you losing time on eveything, people start rushing, people do all kind of crazy stuff when they are in stress.

Just if for example we were in same marine bootcamp. We would never argue about that. Everyone would cover all aspects of tactic, gun handling, survivability etc etc on same level. There would be minor differences but we could work together anyways as the base is the same for each. But this is real life and game is much easier. Lats be honest not everyone cares about others and teamplay. Theres defenetly people who trying to play in team but their understanding of that is different or limited by some reasons

What I want to say is that its hard in any way. Difficulty is not in the guns but in players themselves. How you organize and execute.

[quote=""Demon speed""]I say lethal. It's a challange to play lethal weapons and got good score.

Assuming if player which use LessLethal or lethal aim good score, then Less lethal allow players for less tactical gameplay (I didn't said no tactical gameplay), if something went wrong you can almost alway shot suspect and keep good score. On purpose i omit the penetration of objects which is weak side of LL and bugs.

Player which use lethal to get good score need rationally use his equipment and be careful with tactics, because if something went wrong, tactic nor equ fail, then gonna be forced to use lethal weapons and high chance to lost points.[/quote]

I agree that it's harder to get a good score playing lethal. Of course anyone can rambo through a mission killing every suspect in sight, and this seems to be the default opinion that LTL players have of players using lethal weapons. Lethal does not mean kill them all and let God sort them. Far from it.

There is no doubt that games like SWAT4 lean players toward LTL, if they want to score high. If you want to exceed the game limitations imposed by such a point system, playing lethal and trying to arrest as many suspects as is safe for civilians and officers, and preserving anywhere from 60-80 points, you have probably played as close to true police ROE as possible.

Police try to save lives, that is true. However, police assign value to each life differently. For example, if there is a choice between saving a civlian non-combatant or an armed suspect, these are not equal in the ledger sheet. If there is a choice between saving and officer or saving a civlian non-combatant, close your ears...ROE is to save the officer. This doesn't mean that an officer will choose to save himself before a civilian--often the opposite is true, but a partner or team mate should ALWAYS choose team over civilian. In the military the mission comes first. If saving a scumbag for interrogation is the goal, you just pray that such decisions don't have to be made during your next operation. Therefore it's well known police tactics are to avoid loss of life.

Also, from my perspective, SAS added SWAT 4 because it was a great tactical shooter and we play using a blend of police and military tactics because it makes the most sense for us. What drives me nuts is when people say stupid things like, "We play tactical here, no lethal weapons." I don't think that word 'tactical' means what you think it means. Just because my tactics are different than yours, doesn't mean I'm not playing tactically. I always laugh at the ridiculousness of the idea that tactical=LTL. What you should say is that we use LTL tactics here. You can't change the meaning of a word to suit your needs because it invalidates everyone else's tactics.

Just because most idiot, nabs don't know how to properly employ lethal tactics, doesn't mean that there are not good tactics being used during lethal-weapons-only play.

Try scoring over 70 points at the DNA lab using only lethal weapons and tactics. It's HARD. Conversely, it's fairly simple to use LTL tactics and score over 80 points.

That's my opinion, I welcome yours.